1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

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1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Mikemile91 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:01 am

so im not sure if my battery is getting charge as it should from the stator. with the multi meter hooked up engine running at idle what should I see? shouldn't it be at least a little more than battery voltage? because to be honest it only goes up when the engine is revving quite high 4500+ even then it doesn't seem enough. I'm pretty sure my new battery is toast from undercharging. I removed it from the bike and can only achieve 5ish volts after bench charging so ya bummer.... can any help here?
Last edited by Mikemile91 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Butcher on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:27 am

Electrical issues can be a PITA to sort over forum here :) But I'll try.


"im not sure if my battery is getting charge as it should from the stator"

"with the multi meter hooked up engine running at idle what should I see?"

Nominal (technical turn for just normal) battery voltage should be say, 6.25 volts when fully charged. If below say, 5.75V, battery is flat.



"because to be honest it only goes up when the engine is revving quite high 4500+ even then it doesn't seem enough."

WHAT is indicated volts at say, 4.5 grand? At 4500rpm system SHOULD be charging. Voltage should be actually above 6.25 Volts. -What does it read?


"pretty sure my new battery is toast from undercharging."

Toasting can be done 2 ways. a) Overcharging. b) undercharging. As overcharging is unlikely, undercharging is likely culprit. I'd call that NOT or NO charging! (happening).


"I removed it from the bike and can only achieve 5ish volts after bench charging so ya bummer..."

Ah, yea, bummer!


"can any help here?"

That must be American English (just kidding). Hey, does your bench charger have a current meter attached (amps). If so, does the battery actually draw current out of your charger? current (amps basically) should be high while charging and then slowly drop off.


Also, check battery fluid (electrolyte) level. Should fall between min/max indicator marks on side of battery. ALWAYS USE DISTILLED WATER.



Er me um, what type of battery do you have installed? I assume 6V, same as your desk charger and the fact that it is lead/acid? Or is it sealed glass amorphous ? (costs more). How many AH (Amp / hours) is it???



How reliable is your multimeter? If you have a car, check for me it's battery voltage. Should be 12V unless an old Vdub or a 48V system on a Euro car such as a modern beamer etc! Point is, I NEED to verify if your 'test equipment' is working. Old analogue multimeters need calibrating (etc) and I assume you are using a DMM mate (digital multimeter).


My trade is electronics so electrics is my specialty :). I do need you to answer those questions in order to help you get your 125 going.



ps. There is some info in the manual section re. charging issues. Have a read. I hope your battery is not buggered. It may come right. "Cell reversal" can occur in batteries as it is impossible for all cells to discharge due to ESR. there are bunch of 1.5V cells wired in series, a bit like a daisy chain. Each cell has two terminals, one +, other -. It is possible for cells to freak out and their polarity (+ & -) to flip, sort of like N / S pole reversal on the Earth! I think you want to get electrics going, not get lectured. If you get caught, go see a good auto-sparkie that has a clue. I have no idea of your experience Sir. Just my 5c.

Don't go buy new battery as bike's electrics might not be 100% and may fry new battery, and they are not cheap!
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Butcher on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:38 am

Look up "battery cycling". Basically "loading" battery with say a 25W headlight bulb. Then charge with battery charger. Repeat this a few times. Keep an eye on "current" (amps) and hopefully potentially the "bung" cell might recover chemically. We used to do this with "camcorders" back in the day. I assume you are 25 years old mate?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_cycle


Do that few times and your "duff" battery might recover, hopefully :)



Oh, and I give you $5 for that bike??? :P :P :P -Nice bike. Gord luck ;)



Um and, 5.5V is flat, charge it. Then discharge to say, 5.8V, charge to 6.2V, discharge to 5.8V, repeat "Ad nauseam"... Hopefully batery will be "able" to "provide" enough "joules" to basically in laymen's terms to work ok.




--Have you tested the "diode" aka "rectifier" on the bike ? Most modern multimeters have a "diode" test function. There is a genius method in the "bible" (manual) using said diode, battery and said bulb". Basically rectifier is like a one way water valve allowing "current" (amps!) to flow ONE direction only. One way bulb glows, other way not...
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Mikemile91 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:14 pm

I'll do my best to answer all your questions.

the battery is a Yuasa YUAM26B4B 6N4B-2A lead acid 6 Volt, 4 amp-hour battery. I purchased it new maby a month ago. it arrived dry so I had to add electrolyte and charge it so levels are all good in the min max. Fully charged as of now the best it will achieve is 5.8 Volts. It's $27 for a replacement so if I can't figure out how to do the cycle charge you mentioned ill get a new one.

My multimeter is a snap-on brand so yes I trust it. I've used it quite a bit on other things as well.

The charger im using isn't the best but it charges at 6 volts 1.2A- no readouts I have to monitor with my multimeter but that's what I've got so ya.

im not as concerned with the state of the battery, what im more concerned with is the output I should be seeing from the stator/ Charging system of the bike im leaning towards iter bad rectifier or charge coil but I don't know what type of output I should see at idle or higher RPMs. I have a Clymer manual but it focuses more on newer bikes not really my early 72 so it's confusing to use as far as specs go.

Does that info help?
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby kbzx6r on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:52 pm

Real simple quick test - with the battery connected and headlight turned on, at idle do you see the headlight flicker slightly? Does it smooth out and get somewhat brighter when you rev the engine? If so the charging system is probably working reasonably well. If not, the first thing I would do is unplug, spraw with WD-40, and then replug all the wiring connectors for the HL switch, magneto, rectifier and battery. If that doesn't fix it, I would check the rectifier. You should have continuity one direction and not the other. If that checks OK and still no headlight brightening then I would test the mag coils as per the service manual.
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Mikemile91 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:43 am

kbzx6r wrote:Real simple quick test - with the battery connected and headlight turned on, at idle do you see the headlight flicker slightly? Does it smooth out and get somewhat brighter when you rev the engine? If so the charging system is probably working reasonably well. If not, the first thing I would do is unplug, spraw with WD-40, and then replug all the wiring connectors for the HL switch, magneto, rectifier and battery. If that doesn't fix it, I would check the rectifier. You should have continuity one direction and not the other. If that checks OK and still no headlight brightening then I would test the mag coils as per the service manual.


As for what I understand on my particular bike the coil that powers the headlight and the coil that supplies battery voltage are not the same. My headlight works as intended while running. using its own "lighting coil". The coil that sends voltage to the battery for turn-signals is what im concerned with. If I use my turn signals while sitting at a stoplight idling for instance eventually the bike cannot supply enough voltage to keep the battery sufficiently charged then the battery voltage gets too low and my signals no longer flash. but the headlight still works just fine on its own. yes, it is dimmer at idle and gets brighter running down the road but as it works off a different coil that doesn't supply the battery with voltage so what does the test you stated tell me?

Im almost thinking the charge coil just can't supply the battery with enough voltage regardless, and I need a battery maintainer for when im not using the bike but I just don't have a clue and that seems odd, it should be able to charge the battery sufficiently on its own right?

this is a frustrating conundrum. y bike does have both front and rear signals installed (not by me) is that causing more draw than the bike was intended to supply? I don't know.
Last edited by Mikemile91 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Butcher on Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:03 am

Coil has specific resistance. Measure it. Specs are in manual (should be around 1 ohm I recon, or very low)

Rectifier diode can be tested with multimeter on "diode test". Typically there will be symbol of diode on position.

Fluke is what I trust brand wise, but expensive :)

I assume YOU and your multimeter are competent :)


Measuring S.G. (Specific Gravity) is good way of testing batteries, albeit messy. I also assume correct battery Ph / concentration.



Testing diode is best done by creating circuit with battery and bulb. Get the headlight to illuminate for example. Then wire diode from bike in circuit (series) and light should illuminate one way around, and not the other. This test is "real world" and current (amps) will flow thru (little electrons actually :) ).
Last edited by Butcher on Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby kbzx6r on Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:38 am

You are of course correct about having 2 separate charging circuits. The simple test above is a troubleshooting starting point to see if you have a fundamental problem like a damaged magneto wire bundle or jones plug connector issue, or bad ground or open circuit somewhere. Your results so far indicate it's not the first. It could be a bad charging coil but I VERY rarely saw that happen back when I was working on these bikes. More often it was something like a bad battery, crappy connections, or a owner-caused issue. You've got an old bike with lots of potential previous owner caused issues - a.k.a. surprises. It sounds like you've got the skills and knowledge to work the problem out but as you do that - trust nothing. You might find a totally off the wall surprise like 12v TS bulbs or a backwards connected rectifier (both of which I found in my own bike ha ha ha).
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Butcher on Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:56 am

"jones plug"

Yes, yes I know those military buggers!



Nothing wrong with wires but (wait machines!) weakest link is connectors.

Feel, see, hear (what are the other three senses) Ar, I give up. devil is in the fridge, no, detail!
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Mikemile91 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:59 am

well, im glad you on board with my abilities, Now on a properly working system what kind of voltages should I see (at idle) and (with some rpm). I've looked over the charging system section in the manual and it doesn't really tell me much information. So im asking you guys who have experience so I can see what if anything im missing here. im not really sure of the rectifier system on this thing yet so. I went to school for Marine Mechanics so most of the mechanicals on this thing applies there. but the charging system is somewhat different than an outboard so im trying to work it out. But usual the Repair manuals have alot more information.
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby s_pics on Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:59 pm

hello ya all!

so, I have a manual for I think TS185 model B, it has a troubleshooting for the charging circuit and light circuit.

Hope this will help you :)
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charging system troubleshooting TS185
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby kbzx6r on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:56 am

s_pics wrote:hello ya all!

so, I have a manual for I think TS185 model B, it has a troubleshooting for the charging circuit and light circuit.

Hope this will help you :)


Great Job - Perfect!!!!!!
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Butcher on Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:48 am

In this configuration the (rough) sinusoidal waveform is only being rectified at half wave. Therefore f of AC is (f x 1) [where f = frequency, or crank speed, rpm].

Having AC on there is normal.

What I mean to say is, at 1300rpm, there will be 1300 Hz of AC on there (effectively pulsed DC and NOT pure ripple free DC).

Battery doesn't care the slightest! your multimeter will be calibrated for 50/60hz, therefore inaccurate at such high frequency.







Best way to check if battery is charging is to monitor current. Lift say, the positive connection to the battery and insert multimeter lead to batt term as well as the red(?) wire. Switch multimeter to say, 10A current range (DC) and remove the red lead from multimeter and insert into the "amps" 'banana' socket.

You will see the actual charging current going INTO the battery. If bike is "draining" more current than is being used for charging, the indicated current direction will change. DON'T FORGET TO PUT THE RED BANANA PLUG BACK INTO VOLTS AFTERWARDS, OTHERWISE MULTIMETER WILL SHORT OUT WHATEVER YOU ATTACH IT TO WHILE MEASURING DC.

There are guides on youtube on both voltage and current measurement. Or in old fashioned books :)


confused yet?




" I hooked up my meter while running and at 2000 Rpm there is a .5 Volt increase at the battery and at 8000 Rpm im seeing a 3.0 increase in battery voltage DC."

That sounds about right... Bikes system wont charge battery much at idle.


"but in the "day mode" Both lights off, there is a significant voltage drop 1-3 Volts at all RPMs and im seeing 1.5-1.8 Volts AC at the battery (yikes)."

mmm. Doesn't the resistor "dump" excess (spare) current into heat on "day" mode? WHAT voltage do you read. You mean 1-3 volts BELOW 6, or? The voltage should NOT go below say, 6.25V with fully charged battery. May be your resistor of 2 ohms is too low in resistance? Try disconnecting one lead from it and then measure voltage for me please.



===========================================
I = E / R
I = 6 / 2
I = 3A

With 2 ohm resistor, the resistor will draw 3 amps.

P = I x E
P = 3 x 6
P = 12W

So the resistor will dissipate about 12W, which I think from memory is about 12 joules of energy!

The battery should be able to supply 3A. I think your battery might be shot mate...

===========================================

I will look into the circuit it now....








Here is what full wave and half wave rectification look like... Pure DC should be a straight parallel line to 0V :)

half-and-full-wave-rectification.jpg
half-and-full-wave-rectification.jpg (35.41 KB) Viewed 41 times


Just increased thumbnail size to 800 pixels from 400 pixels width. Thumbnails will appear larger now.
Last edited by Butcher on Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:48 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Mikemile91 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:29 am

I have some progress, I hooked up my meter while running and at 2000 Rpm there is a .5 Volt increase at the battery and at 8000 Rpm im seeing a 3.0 increase in battery voltage DC. but that's while in "night mode" on the key switch so both headlight and taillight on. but in the "day mode" Both lights off, there is a significant voltage drop 1-3 Volts at all RPMs and im seeing 1.5-1.8 Volts AC at the battery (yikes). I did check the diode and its good only flows one way and is hooked up correctly. but with my findings and that it gave me issues in the first place im leaning towards a short in the Charge coil-Bummer..... and my battery is shot (wish I had bought it locally then I could get it warrantied)

Not to mention all the other issues in the wiring I had to fix just to get this far. when I first got the bike there was a battery tender plug wired when it was plugged in then the entire system was getting voltage while hooked up to mains from what im assuming caused all my bulbs, Turn relay and main fuse to be smoked. So it's not too much of a stretch that the charge coil was damaged as well. I like the idea of a battery maintainer bat have seen them if used/installed improperly cause fried electrical components. I've seen it happen on boats in extended storage with a Battery tender left on the battery gets a full charge but the tender doesn't turn its self off it just keeps sending 1-1.8A out and eventually the battery gets way overcharged in if hooked up the rest of the electrical system sends way too much current for hours and hours till something pops.

I would like your guys' input but that's what im thinking. I will re-test when I have a good fully working battery.
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Re: 1972 Ts125J Charging issues?

New postby Mikemile91 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:17 am

Butcher wrote:In this configuration the (rough) sinusoidal waveform is only being rectified at half wave. Therefore f of AC is (f x 1) [where f = frequency, or crank speed, rpm].

Having AC on there is normal.

What I mean to say is, at 1300rpm, there will be 1300 Hz of AC on there (effectively pulsed DC and NOT pure ripple free DC).

Battery doesn't care the slightest! your multimeter will be calibrated for 50/60hz, therefore inaccurate at such high frequency.







Best way to check if battery is charging is to monitor current. Lift say, the positive connection to the battery and insert multimeter lead to batt term as well as the red(?) wire. Switch multimeter to say, 10A current range (DC) and remove the red lead from multimeter and insert into the "amps" 'banana' socket.

You will see the actual charging current going INTO the battery. If bike is "draining" more current than is being used for charging, the indicated current direction will change. DON'T FORGET TO PUT THE RED BANANA PLUG BACK INTO VOLTS AFTERWARDS, OTHERWISE MULTIMETER WILL SHORT OUT WHATEVER YOU ATTACH IT TO WHILE MEASURING DC.

There are guides on youtube on both voltage and current measurement. Or in old fashioned books :)


confused yet?




" I hooked up my meter while running and at 2000 Rpm there is a .5 Volt increase at the battery and at 8000 Rpm im seeing a 3.0 increase in battery voltage DC."

That sounds about right... Bikes system wont charge battery much at idle.


"but in the "day mode" Both lights off, there is a significant voltage drop 1-3 Volts at all RPMs and im seeing 1.5-1.8 Volts AC at the battery (yikes)."

mmm. Doesn't the resistor "dump" excess (spare) current into heat on "day" mode? WHAT voltage do you read. You mean 1-3 volts BELOW 6, or? The voltage should NOT go below say, 6.25V with fully charged battery. May be your resistor of 2 ohms is too low in resistance? Try disconnecting one lead from it and then measure voltage for me please.



===========================================
I = E / R
I = 6 / 2
I = 3A

With 2 ohm resistor, the resistor will draw 3 amps.

P = I x E
P = 3 x 6
P = 12W

So the resistor will dissipate about 12W, which I think from memory is about 12 joules of energy!

The battery should be able to supply 3A. I think your battery might be shot mate...

===========================================

I will look into the circuit it now....








Here is what full wave and half wave rectification look like... Pure DC should be a straight parallel line to 0V :)

half-and-full-wave-rectification.jpg


Just increased thumbnail size to 800 pixels from 400 pixels width. Thumbnails will appear larger now.


No im not totally confused but ill have to get a new battery to accurately test to go forward.

In all seriousness from everything I have said does it seem like I even have an issue? Shouldn't the bike be able to keep a battery charged and be able to use the turn-signals at idle? seriously, Am I missing something? what is your honest opinion? i find it odd that this happend.... so ya
Last edited by Mikemile91 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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